Mastering LSN

This match was started as part of this Mastering LSN project, but unfortunately it was never completed due to DibbleNGrub timing out. Not sure what happened to him....

I've decided to release what was written of the game so far, along with the commentary that had been entered up to that point as I didn't want the participants effort to go to waste. At least this will give you a small insight into how this system works.

Please bear in mind that this is a little rough around the edges as it didn't go through the final Commentator examination

Posted by Robmonster at 4:18 PM | Permalink

So I've volunteered for the mastering LSN series, and Oddball is my opponent

It's a 20FP wipeout, medium size map, and the server has chosen "Encounter"
Now, this isn't one I've played before, so it's off to LS:Zero to have a look at the map and the deployment areas, and the LS:Archive to see what everyone else has played on this map (and also to see if Oddball has any uploads too)

Here's a link to the map, as DNG didn't provide it. A knowledge of the map SIDE would have been handy for commentating too, but I presume he's green since I got his deployment first. http://www.countzero.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/lsn/maps/encounter.jpg

- Jaques Cartier

Quite a lot of games for Encounter - leading me to believe that people enjoy playing it
Looking at the files, people have played all 4 races here - which pretty much confirmed my impression that the map is OK for any race - no major advantages or disadvantages

Imo, the bunker in the blue side is a heaven for grey base. If greys can have a chance to camp there, it'll be a nightmare to get an experienced player out from there...

- JC

Oddball has some nice marines games uploaded, which he seems to prefer

I've also looked at my own games, to see what information he could glean...

Race choice
So, to look at possible deployments and strategies

Greys.
These are possible - there's a nice hardpoint for a regen, with lots of possible places to hide 1 or 2 other regens. The loadout would depend on what I think he's going to pick - psykers are essential against spawn - but would probably be 1 guardian, 1 warper, 3 regens, 2 psykers, 6 sentries. That gives me both defensive and offensive possibilities, but probably weak against marines.

Machina
Lots of destructable terrain here, so MT's would be a good thing. However, it's quite a small map, so if he's marines or spawn he'd be able to close quite quickly, and there's really only one place for a safe base - so the MT would be pinned there. Also, machina aren't my best race, so, I think I'll rule this out.

Spawn.
Lots of little cut-throughs and cover, which would make either a rush or sneaky spawn quite a possibility. A little congested for the queen, but nothing too serious

Marines.
Grenade city. Lots of destructable terrain, low cover, windows to launch through. With 20FP I'd use at least 3, probably 4 naders to do some serious explosions, and to do a rolling barrage.

Got to make a decision here - and I'm going to try something a bit odd, which has worked nicely for me in other games. I'm going spawn, and I'm basically going to hide for the first 3 or 4 turns. I've found that tends to have several nice side effects:

a) Few MT's, 'naders and warpers can keep their fingers off the trigger for that long - so I'd get some valuable race intel, and burn ammo that has to be reloaded.
b) Most loadouts will spread out in that time, giving a less concentrated firezone against the (inevitable) rush. I can give up map control, as spawn are so rapid few will be able to keep map control once I start moving.
c) If any slum clearance does happen, it will be in "advanced" positions - and not near to his base(s) where he needs it
d) If / when he does find me, it'll be at short range - ideal for any drones...

Of course, if he's going spawn as well then most of these benefits won't apply.

Spawn isn't that bad choise on Encounter. It really depends on the opponent, or thy own mood what might be the best.

- JC

Loadout

So, to the loadout. 20FP available.

1 queen. Thought about 2, but I don't think I'd be able to make the most of it, as the location of the bodies is what matters with spawn. If he's marines, as I suspect, then the firepower available could strip a queen in a turn or 2 anyway.

3 goo spitters. These are, without doubt, my favourite spawn troops. Great for area denial, reduction of mobility, herding into killzones and quite dangerous over time if you can get someone goo'd down.

2 spikers. A bit light, but they're mostly intended for anti-base duties, so hopefully that'll be OK. If he goes machina then I can always recycle something else and try to get more

4 splatters. These are the #1 anti-marine troop - fast, a fair number of points and with a lot of damage. Additionally, with my initial tactic of hiding, if he finds a splatter I've left on red-red at close range, then...

3 buzzers. Would like more, as a mob of buzzers is great for assasination runs, but this is the minimum. I'll keep them well hidden to begin with, as explosions are bad news for buzzers. Additionally, in the final rush, they can try to draw op-fires and then sneak behind the lines for anti-base duties.

4 drones. The drones are more a threat than a real force here, as 4 drones can be dealt with fairly easily in a straight rush. However, if I can get close-range from hiding, they can pack a nasty surprise.

Expected strategy
Here's my expected strategy, depending on what he picks. In decreasing order of likely success:

Marines - what I'm hoping for. Ambush his approach team(s) with drones and splatters, chase badly damaged units with buzzers, claim map control as he falls back, eat any remaining bodies, and steadily goo his position until he has nowhere to fall back to - then rush. If I can, force-spike the base or any goo'd troops from a safe range.

Machina - I'll take an initial hit, as his scanner will see hidden troops - I'll have to keep them a bit mobile to prevent direct hits from any MTs. After that, basically the same as Marines - keeping his positions goo'd is the key to victory.

Spawn - Depends on his loadout. If he's going for a drone rush, I'm sunk - as the buzzers and goo spitters are basically useless. Otherwise, close everyone up near the queen, keep control of the bodies, and try to keep the queen safe and ungoo'd. If I did have to rush, HB had a great tactic - charge in with drones, get some kills, try to get out without being killed, and then follow up with a splatter to wipe any bodies.

Greys - Trouble. I've not enough drones for a proper rush, and I'd be pounded with warps and psykers. I'd just have to rush in and hope I can crack the defense, with the queen following to recycle any bodies. Don't have a lot of hope though.

Good to have a some sort of plan on the game, but I usually tend to make slightly more balanced deployment than specifically only against one race, even if it is the favoured race of the opponent. I might weight my deployment a little (like when expecting spawn, turn one sniper and/or perhaps one nader in to grunts/medics), but it's a little too gamble for me to have only 1/4 chance not to be screwed.

-JC

Posted by DibbleNgrub at 12:33 PM | Permalink

Right my opponent, after doing some research into Dibble & grub i started at the LGA, but it came back empty!. decided to have a quick peak at the league, oh dear, ranked 23 in Elite 28-0-7. impressive record at any level of this game, this will be a tough match. hope he looks at me as a walk over..

No indications on such case, at least yet.

-Jaques Cartier

The map Encounter.. hmmm played this map a few times and come across all races on it. very flexable for all with the exception of mechs i feel unless without MT's. Spawn! good terrain to move around without being detected then if in the right places can be quick and decisive finish. Greys either side can get a good defensive/attacking line out in most areas. i feel i got the better defensive bunker position though. Marines the all rounders of LSN..plenty of cover and lots of places to skirmish only thing worrying is the areas needed to cover, spread too thin and its tough too tight and u lose the edge on your manouverability.

Good to ponder the map's possibilities a bit.

- JC

I dont see any evidence of Dibble & Grub being a Spawn player so Marines or Greys is a likely choice.. i hope. i am not a fan of greys but will use if i feel i got an advantage on the map with them, so im going to take the old favourite Marines.. definately going nader heavy.
counter Greys and keep them back. and if i do come against spawn, make sure it hurt coming towards me.

So it is a classic Marines against Spawn again. This should be rather tight match, as both player's plans include the opponent as the strong point. DibbleNGrub might be a little stronger than Oddball at the start, as he especially specialized his group against marines, while Oddball tried to make slightly more balanced team. Should be intresting.

- JC

Posted by Oddball at 7:18 PM | Permalink

My Deployment nothing very exciting here.. just covering a fair bit of the map so i can throw some nades down before regrouping.

2 HQs, 5 Grunts, 2 medics, 3 'Naders, 1 Sniper and 1 Commie = 20pts

Rather balanced force. The amount of 1FP units will be an advantage to him as he is up against spawn, but I think he could have done without the third 'nader and gone with a grunt and a medic instead. This is, however, what he picked, so I hope he can find a lot of good uses with 'em, like when clearing corpses and doing area denial.

- JC

Posted by Oddball at 5:36 PM | Permalink

Turn 1 and the games begin, well nothing spotted! but wasn't expecting to see him. just a few op fire orders sent and my commy breking a spot in the wall for my nader. lets see what turns up. i wonder wot DnG has decided to deploy.

Sticking out one's nose too far at the start might be disastrous, and that is exactly because of spawn. Against other races, it could give one the advantage of area control, but against the spawn, it might give one the disadvantage to find one's scouts inside their queen's belly. That means you have less units to fight with, and he has more = not good. This is exactly that DnG is trying to do in his plans. However, Mr Oddball here has been careful so far, so he shouldn't get utterly wasted.

- JC

Posted by Oddball at 5:56 PM | Permalink

early days, nothing spotted. lines of fire set up for this few turns and a few nades laid down just incase he has rushed a few areas with spawn. will be moving out next turn back to an area he cant reach, see if any explosions come in.

If DnG has rushed out, this might give Oddball the advantage he needs to pull back and do a hedgehog™ defence. If DnG won't charge headstrong at Oddball's positions, it might give him some critical information needed to make a hard blow on Oddball's plan, forcing him to make something foolish later on. It's a small gamble, but is it worth it? Stay tooned to find out!

- JC

Posted by Oddball at 6:11 PM | Permalink

Nothing seen, but that's hardly surprising.

Just a little bit of tidying up on the initial positions. I'll chew a few holes, set the splatters to go off on demand, and wait.

Posted by DibbleNgrub at 12:00 PM | Permalink

Still nothing, which is fairly comforting - if I were Grey then I'd be trying psykes, and if he's Machina then he probably would have spotted me straight off with a scanner, and let rip with MT's
Of course, he still could be - and timed it so I didn't find out until next turn.

So, no change in tactics.

The queen got a bit tangled with all the doors at the top, so I'll chew a few more away this turn. Apart from that, just carry on waiting. I'll also jiggle the foremost landmine team, as if he is machina, that's where the missiles are about to strike - and I'll try to dodge...

Good to prepare for the worst, but hopefully that won't be leaving DnG under those probing 'nades Oddball decided to leave for him.

- JC

Posted by DibbleNgrub at 12:01 PM | Permalink

Turn 3: 30-40 secs

Phew. He's marines - 3 'naders with itchy trigger fingers...

Now, if I were him, that exit for the nader looks a bit vulnerable - so I'd have blown a second exit with a commo behind him. I'll assume there's a commo there until I know better. On the right two 'naders make spotting a bit more tricky. I think the explosion inside the building wasn't intentional, giving this trajectory:

Almost certainly a grunt in there as well, who was supposed to blow the door away and missed.

And two 'nades in the same place makes me think he's in a "good" location, so probably this one is correct:

Now, to infer his strategy. He's currently fairly static, and is blowing the fronts off buildings. I'd guess two bases, one in the military building, and one on the far right, or maybe in the middle, based on the location of his 'naders. Next turn I think he'll do pretty much the same thing, moving the explosions along a bit to clear cover.

This type of anticipating makes the elite players rather dangorous opponents, they pretty much know what their opponents are about to do beforehand, and can react to that.

- JC

As to his forces - all a bit of a guess, but:
3 'naders (confirmed)
1 commo
2 bases
for 11 points. Probably leaving something like
1 sniper
5 grunts
2 medics
if he's got a fairly standard marines loadout

Pretty good guess I would say. 100% correct!

- JC

Posted by DibbleNgrub at 1:54 PM | Permalink

turn 3, nothing to report.. he is keeping very low and very quiet. he will know by now that im marines by the nade blasts so my race is up from a suprise point of view. need to get a spot on his guys soon. i dont think he has gone spawn, but will keep back for now. hmm wonder if he did venture forward at all!? and took some damage in a window.we can but hope.

Your insight doesn't serve you well, young Skywalker.

- JC

Posted by Oddball at 6:30 PM | Permalink

Same again this turn - the left-hand 'nader has fallen silent after 2 shots, but the right-most two have just confirmed their relative positions - 3 shots each now.

I'm still fairly confident he hasn't seen any of my troops yet - there's a very slight possibility that the queen was seen, but his 'nade pattern isn't doing slum clearance, just damaging open space, so...

I'll keep on lurking, and get into position for the charge with the drones and splatters next turn. Here's the general attack pattern:

The main push is going to be on the right, so I'll need the queen on that side. The rush will be led by 2 drones, followed by 2 splatters. So far, his 'nades have been fairly isolated - one explosion at a time. So, if I get caught by one, it's no great problem. I'll follow with a spitter - a great way of killing marines slowly - and get ready for the spikers to fire through windows, using hte hole he created last turn.

The queen and 3 buzzers will bunch up - the buzzers can go through buildings to get to the action.

On the left, I'll hang back for a bit longer - wait for him to commit on the right, and then rush in the drone / splatter combos - either on the left, or flanking on the right to catch that wing as they retreat.

Posted by DibbleNgrub at 2:11 PM | Permalink

More harmless explosions from the rightmost 2 'naders
So, this turn the rush starts - He seems to like launching at 7.5 secs so I'll try to dodge the probable inflight 'nades.

Charge in on the right, taking cover where I can. Following with a spitter to goo any marines out in the open next turn, and provide covering fire from the 2 spikers. If possible, I'll try to prioritise the 'naders, as they'll clear away bodies otherwise

My queen is still a long way from the action, which I'm not happy about - but she'll get there

The buzzers will get into position, gather intel and try to draw other fire - but keep away until the 'naders are running or out of commission. I'll group them for assasination runs later.

I'll gather the middle group, ready for a run - but not this turn.

Posted by DibbleNgrub at 3:31 PM | Permalink

well nothing to see yet but, he is throwing the chat of greys charge now. deception!? maybe. he isnt showing his face. so still putting down some nades and the odd force fire in alleyways just to be sure.

Posted by Oddball at 9:29 PM | Permalink

well he is hiding well, hmmm should i feel twitchy at this point. could be greys trying to sneak in on me. i like to hope i have all areas covered. not had a thing from him yet. so im am guessing he has got a scanner in close enough to see my guys. im going to blow some walls up this turn see if it shows anything he wasnt expecting.

Posted by Oddball at 9:32 PM | Permalink

well it turned out my hunch was way of the mark, he opted for spawn. retreat!!!! luckily he came from the area i just naded so took some damage on the way in but got a drone near my nader.. counted a few drones couple of splatters and a gluegun. a queen will be there somewhere.. time to hold off the rush while i pull back, limit my dead. get my guys in firing zones now and watch them come. i pray to the grunt gods that i pop a splatter before it gets close and damages him before me...

Posted by Oddball at 9:48 PM | Permalink

well he has gone spawn, and the rush is on. he managed to get close to me but not close enough, my nades have done plenty of damage on his incoming.
commander tommy has done sterling work disposing of a drone and buzzer on the way through. i can see he has bunched 2 splatters up which if i can capitalise on will be a bonus, and hopefully take the spiker out behind them. time for a bit of force fire and nade supression while i move back a bit, sitting in buildings is just asking to be eaten.

i notice he made a little probe on the left hand side with his googun. at least that stops a splatter coming in on that line as its probably my weaker side.

Posted by Oddball at 7:52 PM | Permalink